彼得曼·说OMA

Q1 大多数中国人已经对OMA很熟悉，但是他们很少听过AMO。能请您简短地介绍一下OMA、AMO和您的研究项目吗（图1）？

OMA（大都会建筑事务所，简称OMA)于 1975年由 雷姆·库哈斯（Rem Koolhaas）和他的妻子麦德伦·维森多普（Madelon Vriesendorp）以及另外一对夫妇埃利亚·增西立斯（Elia Zenghelis）和佐伊·增西立斯（Zoe Zenghelis）创立。库哈斯先生同时也从事着写作，他写过《癫狂的纽约》（Delirious New York），并且早年间曾在荷兰一个知名杂志社做过记者。所以在他成为建筑师的过程中，叙述、故事性和思考的元素总是超出了建筑的范畴。在很长一段时间内这只是一个背景，但是随着项目的发展和事务所的发展壮大，某个时间在事务所里成立一个部门，一个更关注思维层面的部门成为了必然。

所以我们试图建立一种和客户合作的方式来了解他到底想要什么以及他为什么想要这个，然后在这两个方面努力。这就是为什么要成立AMO——为了提出问题，同时为了关注新的发展。这些发展可能会使建筑更令人振奋，有时也可能跨学科。我和库哈斯先生在这种类型的项目上工作了13年，通常我们会涉及不同领域，比如从政治方面到历史保护等方面做设计，有时是展览或出版。这时候对一件事更好、更突出、更广泛的兴趣就产生了。人们往往会关注他们好奇的事物，AMO也是一样的，但我们充满好奇心，更愿意去探究世界的运转规律（图2，图3）。

Q2 所以库哈斯先生同时也是位思想家，而不仅仅是建筑师、城市设计师？

我觉得在一开始你可以看到他曾经有城市设计方面的理想，但是后来，这种想法往往没有这么强烈了。OMA将重心从城市设计更多地转移到了建筑上。不过从2000年开始，我们有时也会做总体设计，但这是一个很难的专业。如你所知，建筑很难，但可能城市设计更难。

Q3 现在OMA规模如何？多少人在OMA工作？

我估计OMA现在大概有250～300人。我们在纽约设有办公室，在北京、香港、鹿特丹也有，在其他有项目的地方有一些跟随项目的小型办公室，比如巴黎、伦敦和中东的城市，在米兰也有一个小办公室。例如，我们其中一个合伙人是意大利人，他就在米兰做意大利的项目。

Q4 OMA大部分人都是建筑师吗？有城市设计师或者其他人吗？

是的，我们也有一些城市设计师。但非常不同的是，我本人反而不是设计师，我是历史学家。我们同样也有记者、生物学者和其他一些专业背景完全不同的人。也就是说，你得先有良好的知识基础和不同的专业能力，你才能思考。在这里工作更必要的条件是，你得有雄心、有积极向上的态度、要勤奋。我觉得这才是在事务所里工作更重要的特质。

Q5 您会花很多时间做研究吗？比如先梳理项目背景和内在逻辑然后才绘图？

是的，很多时候是这样的。因为大多时候你并不了解你的客户，你也不知道他是谁、他想要什么以及他为什么想要，所以你必须在这上面花很多时间。正常来说，如果你知道了他想要什么，你也会知道设计最终会呈现的样子，这是相辅相成的。这也是库哈斯先生做的最好的一点。你去深入了解你的客户其实是一个人际交往的过程，因为你们会在一起共事很多年，你们要一起做出财务决策，你们会一起分享很多想法。所以跟你的客户有亲密关系是很重要的，这不像你随便走进一个餐厅点一份汉堡这么简单。

Q6 当OMA和客户谈项目的时候，是不是除了建筑师以外，其他专业背景的人员也会和客户交流？

是的，我非常喜欢这个流程，而且我认为这一点上还可以做得更多，不仅仅在中国，还有在其他地方也应该这样。这种人际关系上的工作可以为后续工作带来很多便利。

当然它也可以让你很头疼。总的来说，你和客户的关系越紧密，你的设计往往就越好。我也试着告诉学生们，一定要和客户变得亲密，要仔细地倾听，也要学会去问他们问题，甚至是让他们不舒服的问题。你知道，说实话其实是荷兰的传统。荷兰人非常开放，而且很坦率。你去提问，就能得到答案，甚至有可能是你不喜欢的答案。其他文化背景下，如果有做这些事更好的办法，我也会乐于接受。

Q7 您怎么看待在中国建筑界，客户、设计师和政府的关系？

这些关系是存在的，不仅仅在中国，在全世界都是这样，我不确定它是不是非常特殊。我觉得无论在哪，如果你能建立更紧密的关系，你就会有更多的可能性，有更好的设计。但是，我觉得中国有她自己的速度和自己的特质。所以我想，或许我们对时间的考虑会有所不同。欧洲对时间的感受会比在中国慢,你能明显从城市发展上看出来。举个例子，在乡村你就可以不用那么功利，拥有更多闲暇时间，思考得更久。事实上，我觉得在中国，建筑不是致力于长久保存的，这是一个根植已久的传统。然而在欧洲，建筑需要百年之久的想法仍旧可以通过遗存的建筑或其他被保留下来的东西传播出去。当然了，那里也有很多廉价的、不好的建筑。这也是最让我和历史学家们感兴趣的点之一。当然，我很多时候是从历史学家的角度看事情，所以我对于发展速度有很多思考，比如你怎么去控制它，或者怎么能让它更有效率。

现代化早期阶段，在欧洲有一个观点是建筑会存在大概40年，之后这个建筑就应该消失了。但是现在你可以看到，过去60年至70年，你还可以看到这些建筑留存了下来。事实上，现在已经很难去置换掉它们了，因为它们往往都被以很高的价格被卖给了别人，所以你不能直接把它们拆除，因此40年往后甚至更久的时间里，你还得面对着这些建筑。

我觉得在中国也是一样的状况。很多人会想，我们要建设得很快，40年后我们再建一个新的。但是，当你站在城市规划的角度上看，这其实很困难。因为通常60年甚至上百年都很难有很大的改变，你仍然会被上百年前的举措所左右。这是一个非常难、非常有挑战性的命题。

我认为从长远考虑会更有益，你可以使建筑有所改变，而无需拆除它们。你可以建一个质量非常好的建筑，那样百年之后这座建筑只须做很少改动，还能在那里。直到80年前，这种状况在建筑界还是很常见的。在那之前，西方世界认为所有的建筑都会被长久保留。

我认为这是一个传统，我们必须用某种方法重新结合这些想法，从时间尺度上理解城市。

Q8 您喜欢北京吗？

是的，我很喜欢北京。这里有些地方我去了很多次。我喜欢市中心，但是有时一些建筑的保护方式会引起人的思考，一些建筑已经失去了原汁原味的感觉，变得有点假，这种事情到处都有发生，包括阿姆斯特丹也是。

但是像望京这片区域，我就很喜欢，因为它很日常而且令人放松。这里的人们在享受着生活。现在空气质量也变好了，甚至在欧洲都有媒体报道北京又重新开始呼吸了。我回欧洲的第一年就告诉大家，那里没有那么糟糕了，你们也应该去看看。现在在欧洲人们认识到北京变干净了。所以可能以后会有更多西方人再来。

就目前还是太少西方人来中国了，这一点我总是感觉很难过。这里有太多东西可以看，有很多事你不知道也从来没见过，这里有完全不同的氛围，可能会帮助欧洲人从新的视角看待世界。所以我经常鼓励人们来这里，来吧，来好好体验。

图 2 / Figure 2卡塔尔国家图书馆概念生成和模型推敲 / Concept and Models of Qatar National Library

图 3 / Figure 3HKIUD会议安排的体验活动/HKIUD-Actions for Active Ageing

Q9 您去过中国其他地方吗？比如上海、香港或者其他地方？

是的，但现在可能去农村更多一些。上一次我们去了太原。我们也去过了大寨，那里特别棒，很独特。我们去了雨补鲁村、文村、寿光、乌镇和其他一些地方，但仍然有很多地方需要去看。

Q10您认为那里是个村、镇还是城市？您是怎么分类的？

我们国家的首都是当地最大的城市，有70万居民，在我的认知中，大寨的人口规模就是个城市了。我来自一个4万居民左右的村庄，能看到地区之间有这么大的不同，这很神奇。你们很幸运有这么富饶的国家。我的意思是，我这么说不是为了奉承，而是我之前在自己国家的经历和这里太不一样了。

Q11 所以北京市中心有让您想到阿姆斯特丹或其他地方吗？

是的，但市中心很多地方像是变成了游客的工厂。我不是说它不好，因为那里其实有很多真正值得看的地方。如果你住在阿姆斯特丹，你就很难再愿意去市中心了。我喜欢像中国国家博物馆一类的场所，陈列着古代人类的遗物。我们和一位挪威的教授卡尔·奥托·艾勒弗森（Karl Otto Ellefsen）去了烤鸭餐厅，我和他在一起做一个中国的项目，我们玩得很开心。

Q12 您知道库哈斯先生最喜欢中国哪个城市吗？他对那个城市有什么看法？

其实我很难说他的想法，但是我知道他确实很喜欢北京。他去了很多次香港，他也很喜欢那里。我觉得他喜欢北京是因为这里是政治中心，这里大大小小的创新都让人喜欢，也因为这里的城市布局和城市化格局非常不同，我觉得是相当特殊的。因为它有些地方有延伸，有点像洛杉矶这种城市不只有一个市中心，而有很多个中心区。你们也有相对低增长地区，和高增长地区相结合。所以你们有庞大的各类融合的城市，这一点在当时OMA基于这个状况设计CCTV大楼的时候尤为重要，我们想要在这个基地上加一个完全新颖的东西，与这里其他的塔有所不同。这就是为什么我认为这是对北京现存城市状况的一个正确回应，我认为它是个很棒的建筑，我很喜欢它。

Q13 OMA在其他城市有像这样的项目吗？

我认为这是一个特殊时期的特殊机会。从历史的角度看，它是一个从未被模仿的建筑。这是一个世纪建筑，因为背后有政治需要在支持它，有经济条件在支持它，也有设计在支持它。我觉得当这三点融合到一起，就像星体在某一时刻重合一样。我没法预见这种状况在短时间内能再次发生，因为这种级别的雄心壮志实际已经达成了。

它使城市化不再只停留在水平层面，而是试图创造出一种三维有机体。至少对于我来说是这样，我不是个城市规划师，所以我其实不能真正地评判它，但我能看见它企图在水平和竖直的系统中做一些东西，城市设计是如此，建筑也是如此。

从项目上来看也是有道理的。客户的需求很大，空间的需求很大，CCTV大楼就是这样一个复杂的结合体。我认为这个循环真的有助于宣传理念和公司的运营。这不仅是一件看起来好看的东西，它还很实用，背后有运营的想法支撑它。

图 3 / Figure 3卡塔尔国家图书馆室内 / Qatar National Library Indoor View

Q14 事实上您之前提过有一些途径是稳定的，而且应该在历史上回溯其起点。我的问题是您怎么看待那些普通村落。那些普通乡村与普通城市有关系吗？您会去在村落或者城市里寻找一些固定的基本元素吗？

这是一个很好的问题。我认为其中是有一点割裂的，我们不知道应该叫它标准村落还是普通村落。

它可能还是介于两者之间。我们起初也被学术界的反馈所吸引。我们做了6个各具特色的村落。然后我就在想，学术界给的评价中正确的是，这些村落是特殊的，那么另外300万人口呢？你怎么评价那些呢?这是一个非常好的问题。因为你说不准在这么多样化的景观中有多少不同的元素，所以我们很认真地想研究什么才是标准的村落。

所以我们做了更多的研究，我们一直在做的是了解农村的基本状况，使用了一些统计数据的办法，还结合了一些其他研究手段。我们与中央美术学院的研究项目致力于能帮助这些调研村落实现基本需求，然后带来一些新的东西，比如空间上的思考，或者一些方法来优化他们的现有条件。虽然有时候，条件很有限，但我们仍然可以试着作为一个设计师和这个区域交流。因为大多数状况下，这是一个能把大家都集合到一起的最经济的方法，把所有城市里来的人和国外来的人，集合到一个小村落里。从经济学来看这是不可理喻的，所以你要怎么做？你还能怎么继续帮助这些人？

这就是为什么你可以看到这类项目有巨大需求。我认为为了让乡村更好、更宜居，让人们想呆在那儿，想在那儿生活，你需要去展现给他们看，告诉他们怎么能做到。所以这挺难的，我觉得这个项目也挺难的。我不是说我们能实现所有的目标、能帮到所有人，但至少我们有野心，去看看我们在这么艰难的状况下能否做到。

随着城市化发展，很多资金投入其中，有了这些资金能更简单地操纵很多事。但是在农村，这个状况有所不同，所以需要换个角度去思考。如果在这一点上要有所进步，需要大量实践性的尝试。我们希望能给一个普通村落下明确的定义，但到现在还没达成。同样的，我觉得和库哈斯先生最初的设想有所不同的是们尝试通过更多的交流带来希望，或者一种新的状况，使得乡村的生活等级提高而不是倒退（图4—图10）。

Q15中国乡村和欧洲乡村或者美国乡村有什么相似之处吗？

图 4 / Figure 4卡塔尔国家图书馆室外 / Qatar National Library Outdoor View

图 5 / Figure 5普拉达塔及周边 / Prada Torre and surroundings

据我所知，欧洲在这方面介于中国和美国之间。我们都知道各地的一些状况，美国乡村某些地方已经变得很空旷，没人在那居住了，村子很少，有些地方全都是机器和机器人。而另一方面，中国有的地方在很紧凑的空间布局中有将近300万农村人口，有很多这样的村庄，并且它们将一直存在着，比如小的定居点、小社区。我认为欧洲有点像是两者都有。我们有很多机器人并有很空旷的乡村，但我们同时也有很成功、很繁荣的村庄。我们也有人口从城市向乡村的迁移，像在中国你能看到的这样。我有时候也去美国，那里土地的广阔和空旷也令人印象深刻。中国的状况介于两者之间，因此两方面的特质都兼而有之。对于中国农村人来说，我能看到他们身上好的特质。我在想我们是否能让他们提起对空间的兴趣，我们能用什么方法提升他们对于乡村生活的自信，乡村也需要融入21世纪，并且需要获得与城市居民相当的自信心。

Q16其实您提到过城市规划的未来80%都是数字化，而且您也提到了机器人，农村用机器人。所以未来城市会不会消失，取而代之的是各种村落或者小的定居点，仅由数字化设备连接？

就像很多事情都是两者都有的，我认为未来城市生活和乡村生活依然会继续割裂并且人口会持续转移。比如人们有一半时间住在乡下，一半时间住在城市里，这是在我看来最有可能的未来趋势。当互联网产生的时候，其实已经可以预见空间组织形态会变化了，因为你没有必要一直呆在办公室里，你也不再需要去办公室了。

但是我明显不认为事情会那么发展。诚然，它会变化，但没那么戏剧性。正如你所见，现在越来越多的人开始在咖啡厅里或者酒吧里办公，界限开始变得模糊。

我认为总体来说生活会变得更数字化，你会去寻找不同的场所，让你感觉像在家一样，让你感觉舒服，或者让你可以和你的家人多呆在一起。它可能会更重要。比起考虑城市还是乡下，你可能考虑更多的是身边的其他人在哪里？然后就去那里，所以它会变得更独立。

Q17那您认为密度对城市来说仍然很重要吗？

我认为现在密度会更难计算。一直以来大家的观念都是密度是可以被计算的，但其实很难。当你想捕捉一些新的居住模式，发现统计对象并不能固定在一个地方，你很快就会遇到统计学上的困难。例如，有个人虽然是城市居民，但有一半时间呆在乡下，那你怎么登记呢？现在有新的实验技术能用网络设备追踪人的轨迹，不失为一个计算密度的办法。

我觉得这个概念很难理解，而且越来越难说明白它是什么了。因为每个人都像蝴蝶，无处不在，而且会有越来越多这样的人。所以这种密度的概念发生在城市化进度、房价和城市过度发展的状况下，至少在欧洲是这样，北京也是这样。你可以看到多少人都愿意为城市里很小的空间买单，而且有时还不是中国最宜居的城市。

你有时也能在荷兰阿姆斯特丹看到这样的状况。人们为他们的空间付很多钱，然而同样的钱他们在30分钟路程之外的地方就能拥有两倍大的空间，而且还能更便宜。所以你能想象在背后肯定有什么吸引着人们去这些城市。这种现象持续存在。就像阴阳两极，你会想从这种状况中挣脱出来。

Q18有一种理论是让人们住在城市里，释放乡村用地，归还给自然，您同意这个理论吗？

其实这已经非常常见了，前提是确保大量的粮食储备。食物生产仍旧需要消耗很多土地，当然，这是我们无法摆脱的。荷兰还有一项实验技术，他们培育一种种植箱，可以种植出大自然里的植物。如果在城市里用种植箱种植蔬菜，你不再需要市郊来进行这种生产，那你可能需要另外的渠道接近自然，可能会遇到新的问题。

Q19 像都市农业那样？

不，要比那个先进得多。目前来说都市农业都只是生产一些小东西，比如我能制造出一些沙拉，或者一些药草，事实上这不是你用来养活自己的东西。但是那些实验，比如大量种植西红柿，他们背后有非常大的梦想，并不紧紧局限于这些小的农作物，而是需要真正的食物。但如今像小麦，在这种条件下依然很难生产出来。但是对于蔬菜来说，其实不应该局限在地面上生产，因为只在平面上生产是对资源的一种浪费。我觉得这是他们努力的方向，这里面其实有很强的经济驱动力，这也赋予了一个城市原有的形态。要知道他们现在这么做纯粹是由于经济原因。但是通过新技术，可以让事态发生一些转变，因为它可能更优化，比如不再浪费能源。

Q20 可能在城市里打工的二代或三代农民已经意识到了城市中面临的困难。所以他们会愿意回到乡村。但是就像您所说的，另一种生活也是一种理想。我不认为他们会直接回到乡村。他们可能会持续一段往返于城市和乡村之间的生活，因为他们在经济上很欠缺。所以我在想或许他们是被迫留在城市的，而农村村民依旧会继续搬进城市，或者小城镇。但是另一方面，城市里的富人会把他们的公司外迁，从而给乡村带来一种新的生活方式，他们可能会置换掉当地原有的文化。您怎么看待这种中国未来乡村的趋势呢？

这非常有趣。从历史上看欧洲曾是这么发展的。如果回溯16和17世纪，都市和乡村生活都需要城市。举例来说，阿姆斯特丹，因为气候原因以及当时卫生设施一般，显然没有现代设施，因此有一些记载说人在5公里外都能闻到阿姆斯特丹的味道，所以人们很难在里面居住。这就是为什么所有富人在城市的周围的乡村都有房产以及广阔的土地。你能看到富人购置农村土地的地方，农村其实不是一个重要的主题，但却是发展的巨大驱动力。甚至在罗马人的生活中，乡村风情是他们生活不可或缺的一部分。

Q21未来的自动驾驶会改变城市和乡村的关系，您赞同吗？

这很可能由国家未来的政治意愿所决定。我认为政治体系最终会是如何运作农村的决定因素。因为事实上这是市场经济不擅长的领域。你知道，城市生活很容易用不同方式被资本化，很容易涉及到钱，这让市场经济很容易运作。但是在那些只有小市场的地方市场经济很难生存，并且面临着很大风险。

所以当你处在这之间的阶段时，政治体系就会倾向于农村的发展。这时民众的发展意愿就会有很大的转变，更加倾向于农村发展。同时，机遇是什么，你怎么让每个人都过上好日子？所以我想，从这个意义上来说，我很期待了解中国政府会如何构建乡村。在欧洲，这一部分往往都留给了市场来完成。美国也是这样。基本可以看到，农村的条件都非常不好，因为政府不知道在农村土地上应该做什么。

我认为，特朗普大部分支持者都来自乡下，而且目前还没有从他那里得到什么。路还是坏的，火车也没有通，很多地区仍陷于贫穷。他们目前还没有从政府那里得到任何好处，特朗普没有兑现他的承诺，因为我认为他在背后对于乡村没有任何政治意愿。在这里你能明显看到，中国政府至少在这上面有很大的投资。可能有时候很难落实一个想法，但至少有想法。我认为，中国的做法对我来说很特殊，非常具有启发意义，即使有时候它也伴随一些失败和教训。

图 7 / Figure 7台北表演艺术中心 / TPAC

Q22我曾经读到过一篇关于普通城市定义的文章。那么普通乡村呢？OMA会给普通乡村再下一个定义吗？

是的，我们很可能会做一个标准乡村。我认为普通城市是库哈斯先生在新加坡研究结果的一个重要结论，他试着去描述他所遇到的所有平均结果，并且以某种方式表达出来。在这个层面上，解释“通用”这个词的方式是不同的，我们把“通用”作为一个发展的起始点，它能引发一些想象，也能带来一些选择、一些视角和不同的结果，但它们至少有部分是从这个标准出发的。那么一个地方的平均条件是怎样的，我们怎么能从通用的状况中建立针对特定方向的合理方法。母体村落是个非常非常小的样板，而你又怎么去给一个条件平均的村庄建议，使它更先进、更具挑战性、更有趣，并且你要怎么去实现它？

Q23在中国，我们经常想把村庄合并在一起，因为村里的学校很小。一般来说我们会将教育纳入城镇，然后这个城镇周围的村庄可以共享那里的教育资源。但对于村民来说，会认为这太远了，他们不能把孩子送到镇上，而他们又不想让孩子错过教育机会，所以它有两面性，您怎么看待这件事？

在中国情况完全不同，因为这里的人口太多了。这是一个非常重要的课题，我们在访问吕品晶教授的板万村项目时意识到了这一点。他受邀在这个村庄建立一所专业学校，在贵州农村做了一个很棒的项目，建成一所看起来很不错的新学校。但是当时的地方政府决定半关闭学校，然后将孩子转移到镇上的学校，因为他们建造了一座新大楼。我理解，为什么这个项目对乡村十分重要，因为它是村庄与外界社会的一个连接结点，但从学校的角度我同样能够理解，招募到足够愿意生活在小乡村的高素质教师是一个很大的挑战。但即便如此，我仍然希望保留这个当地的小型学校，它需要面对多元的文化、教学方式以及差异极大的空间条件。

我并不太了解中国的教育体系，比如中国孩子要上大学，或者去更大的学校，或者上高中，你才能更适应这个体系。当进入公司以后，会受到公司或者建设团队的培训。就建筑业来说，如果你想成为一个水管工，或者想要去修厕所，你只能在工作中学到这些技能。欧洲不是这样的。在欧洲，这个过程之间有个培训。首先你要学怎么做好一个水管工，然后你才能得到水管工的工作。可能这就是为什么欧洲这类型的手艺活会比中国当地水平稍微高一些的原因。很多时候你去看一个刚落成的建筑，当你仔细看它的细节，你会感觉失望。

图 8 / Figure 8卡塔尔多哈机场城 / HIA Airport City

这就是手艺，你必须去学怎么做。这不只是简单地模仿其他人，你也必须把它看成做好建筑、做好东西的重要一步，这非常重要。

Q24如果几年前来北京，那时候的状况比现在要差，那时北京政府着手改善公厕。你现在可以看到几乎每个地铁站都有公厕，状况已经有所改变了。

是的，而且我们能做得更好。因为我注意到现在一些刚完成的建筑，他们看起来并没有想要达到完美。但我喜欢做得完美，并且我会努力让项目达到完美。

Q25 在中国，大部分村落仍是服务于城市的。尤其这几年受“城乡一体化发展”政策的影响，很多农村都发展为城镇，由于城市的旅游业、商务、贸易需求增加了经济收入。目前据我所知，在欧洲，城乡在发展中的关系可能没有这么紧密，这就是说，其实乡村并不需要依赖城市来发展自己。您怎么看待这种状况？这两个模型之中的优势和劣势分别是什么？

现在欧洲的状态有点像您说的，如果看看阿姆斯特丹周边的城市，你就能看到富人都在往郊区迁移，这对于建设乡村、改善一些原始的小环境有很大帮助。

但当你真正走出城市的限制，当你开两个小时车离开大城市，事态会变得非常令人绝望，当地人往往处在很艰难的境地中。所以我认为城市需要鼓励这种城乡间的资源交换。而且基础设施是生产力的重要组成部分，只要建造了就能有帮助。我认为这就是为什么中国致力于修高速公路、火车轨道和机场，这很有意义，因为它真的改善了乡村基础设施的可达性，这是这个方程式里很重要的一个因子。

Q26 所以在村里您想让学生们为这个项目学习。这和您之前说的基础设施是同一件事吗？

如果能参与到学校建设等更有趣的项目中，我认为去看看你是否能运用新技术也是一件很有趣的事。如果你能找到一种方法使乡村学校也能变成项目的一部分，你就能让它变得更有效的服务于村民。为人着想是最重要的。

Q27 库哈斯先生在一个采访中曾经提到过“保护”，他提到现在地球表面的12%都是在某种保护机制下存在的，而且这种状况仍将继续存在。您认为这12%和乡村有交集吗？您怎么看待古建筑保护和乡村发展之间的关系的呢?

这是我和库哈斯先生正在做的重要项目之一。我有建筑保护的历史理论背景，所以我和他在这个课题中做了很多工作。所以这12%也是我的计算成果。显然这12%涵盖的更多的是乡村，而不是城市。

因为这是对自然的保护。同样，过去几年里中国在自然保护上加大了投入。很明显，这是与发展主题相矛盾的，我们至少要找到一种与保护相并行的发展形式。在欧洲，你能找到一些两者兼顾的地块，它们有着现代食品生产的驱动力，也有保护过去事物的驱动力。这挺困难的，这两个词语如何碰撞，对于乡村来说也是一个很大的课题。

如何在不改变现有环境的状况下实现现代化，很明显，这个话题也适用于建筑。怎么保证所有建筑都是可持续的，要知道能源产量并不高，这是主要问题。因此我认为，我们低估了这世界上有多少地方是我们不想再去改变的。当然，新的需求也会随之而来，我们必须产出粮食。

为了达成这一点，必须做出改变。然而我们有着另一个体系在说着“不不不，每一件事都应该出于好的理由”。我也是个建筑保护人员，所以我所接受的部分教育是“不不不，不要改变，不能改变”。但同时你能看见这是不可能的。因为可预见的趋势是单向的，你会在既有建筑基础上加建得更多、越来越多。

这是个很大的挑战，但对建筑保护很有益，这意味着我们还有很多保护工作要完成。当你研究很多有趣的建筑时，你会学到另外一件事，就是要时刻保持警惕。当一座没有价值的建筑被拆除的时候，很有可能只是它们的价值没有被当下认可。100年以后人们可能会说，为什么当初要拆除它！因此你必须时刻保持警惕：哪一座建筑是值得保护的？对乡村来说也是一样，我们应该让哪一片乡村留存上百年？也有可能我的子孙后代会说，“我爷爷真蠢，他怎么留了这么个错的东西”。所以，这是个很大的挑战，但也是个有趣的思考。

图 9 / Figure 9中国乡村调研 / Chinese Countryside Survey

Q28淘宝村近年来被中国人热议。您怎么看待这一现象？在参加完淘宝村会议之后您有什么感受？

东风村对人非常有启发，我觉得很有趣，我还就此写了篇文章，得到了欧洲那边很多回应。人们很好奇，不知道有淘宝村这件事，这对于他们来说真的是全新的。我看到很多机遇，也看到很多挑战。所谓机遇，是人们可以脱离城市生产他们想生产的任何东西，这是一个美好的状况，你不再需要将城市看作中心。你可以在农村工作，你可以生产产品，将它运到城市里，然后就会有人将它们卖给别人。这样就会有个新的产业链。我觉得这个前景很令人兴奋。但你着眼东风村，也会发现它显露出了新问题。你能看到村里的人们有个成熟的关系网。

于是有人开始复制产品，并且试图让它更便宜一点，然后其他人会想让它更便宜，到最后人都会失败，因为彼此间竞争太多了会引发质量下降。这是一个很消极的局面，你必须作出改变，否则它会由于质量下降变成一个不运转的阿里巴巴系统。我能看见这是一个很有趣的基础角度。我们应该怎样使它更积极，能激励村民们越变越好，而不是自相残杀。

Q29虽然淘宝村叫“村”，但您认为它的运作方式像一个镇或一个城市吗？您怎么看待的呢？

这么说其实有点难。基本上，我认为任何形式的发展都像一个基本的城市。我也认为每个村发展到最后都如同一个小型的城市化发展那样。所以我认为这种城市发展的对比和所谓正常城市发展作对比是有问题的。你会看到这种微型城市或者超级村庄。比如，有时我在城市里工作，某种程度来说，它就是个超级村庄，人们都互相认识，整个运作方式就像一个我长大的乡村。所以我猜，其中的机制是完全不同的。

它更关乎尺度或密度，但我认为淘宝有着有意思的未来。阿里集团也是一家很有意思的企业，我们想和他们合作，看看如何在这种自下而上、彼此联结的发展中做城市规划。我在想他们也需要空间设计。可以预见，我们会创立运营一个虚拟平台，有点类似于城市规划的最终发展形式，最后再回归到现实中来。平台会持续给大家提供灵感和趣味，他们会变得更活跃，但同时也具有责任。

图 10 / Figure 10中国乡村调研 / Chinese Countryside Survey

Q30 您认为区块产业链等技术手段会催生城市变化吗？在科技方面，中国很多企业对于智慧城市都投入了很大的研发精力，您怎么看待未来技术与智慧城市发展呢？

整个区块产业链的理论都很振奋人心，但其实并不重要。智慧城市是很好，但对我来说有点问题。他们已经推行智慧城市二三十年了，而每次的结果都有些令人失望。即便是谷歌自己的项目，比如多伦多城市发展项目，结果也不是很好，最后并没有很大突破。可能我太老派了或者太保守了，但我觉得他们做的那些没有给生活增加多少价值，他们可能只是让它更舒适了。比如你可以用智能手机控制公寓，或者冰箱可以知道你什么时候回家。但对我来说，这并不耳目一新，可能这就是最大的问题。并不是说反对它，只是找不出我想要这些东西的理由。

智慧城市对于我来说，更像是急切的IT公司在寻求新的企业模式，当我意识到这一点我就不再对它感兴趣了。如果这只是为了赚钱，就行不通，你必须给我我想要的的东西，而非那些无关紧要的东西，我才能付你钱。

Q31 在这个问题上库哈斯先生的意见是一样的吗？

有所不同，但他对此也持怀疑态度。我想他认为智慧城市是关乎生活的，关乎欲望、动力、理想。现在一切都是为了优化，为了让事态更好一点儿，而不是为了革新，为了超凡脱俗。它只关注于如何让人更舒适或者让流程更顺畅。所以一方面它可能改善了人的生活，但同时它也很无趣，使得未来的生活可以被预测。谷歌也在发展能做艺术的算法，然而非常无聊。它不能产出惊为天人的艺术品，我认为所以商业活动都是这样的，他们只会为了其他理由去做一件事。我宁愿把钱投资给真正的艺术品，让那些艺术品更好玩。他们在投资一项很蠢的科技。有一种很好的想法，那就是如果你只关注技术，你是没法知道21世纪的生活是什么样子的。我认为这么发展到最后也就是会变得很舒适而已。如果不去想政治，不去想未来，不去想梦想，而用技术来达成一切，总有一天，它会消耗殆尽。那时候我们就会再思考，我们到底真正要的是什么？

Q32 您对近期“乡村——世界的未来”展览的工作坊有什么想说的吗？

现在我们的想法是，因为我们在做中国的版块，所以得想好要展示什么。我想试着对中国乡村理想做一个概述，它怎么运转的，概念是什么，我们要怎么做。我们想带国际观众关注政府是如何在不同层面塑造乡村的，因为我们认为国际观众对此很陌生。正常来说，一个政府，比如我们谈到过的美国，对乡村治理没有太多想法，而我认为中国政府确实是有关于农村的想法的。在展览现场，我们的想法是建立一个类似于合作社的办公室，农民、政府人员、智库、相关技术人员都能参与其中，为乡村发展出谋划策。从中展现了普遍宽泛的利益关系，以及这个国家正在发生的事情。

Q33 我看到中国乡村这个主题在这次展览里有3～4个隔间

是的，十月我们想在中央美术学院建筑学院里做一个1：1的展览空间模型，作为之后古根海姆展览的1：1模型。我们会将它作为一个测试空间，分享我们的一些初步构想。而古根海姆的展会在2020年2月22日开幕。像婚礼的日期一样！

图 11 / Figure 11阿姆斯特丹市立博物馆展览空间设计 / Stedelijk Bas

Q34你能介绍一下这次的展览主题的由来吗？

好的。他们选了个非常气派的标题—“乡村—世界的未来”。在这次展览中，我只做了中国的一部分，并进一步做了更大量的叙事。并且我认为它在当今这个多元化背景下，会显示出野心。它也会关注乡村和城市的基本问题。举例来说，有一部分是关于俄罗斯的冰盖融化，还有甲烷的释放导致气候变暖和对粮食的冲击。我们正在关注这样的课题。但是举例来说，另一个参加者尼古拉斯·马克（Nicholas Maak）在关注非洲野生动物和自然生态，关注非洲增长的人口是如何与这片土地上的野生动物共享这片土地的。我们想让两者能共存。那怎么和大猴子一起生活，如何在规划的同时安置这些生物呢，你要怎么做？这就是明年二月开幕展览的关注点。这不仅是对库哈斯先生，而且对我们都是一个尚待探索与思考的新领域，所以需要完成的工作还有很多。即便从研究者的角度来讲，从文献、素材以及资源等多角度来看，这都是值得思考的。至少对于我来说，思考与定义现代城郊是一个充满冒险、机遇且有待成长的空间。在这些年，出现了相当多城市和乡村中的建筑，但在我看来它们多少有一些无趣。人们并不会将这些城郊地区的明星建筑看作那些巨大现代温室建筑的同类。比如，在韶光村，建了一个非常引人注意的新建筑，但却没有引起额外的关注，也没人会为它撰写文章，或者说没人把它视为目前发生的大革新的一部分。至少对于我来说，还有相当多的领域值得去发现。

库哈斯先生的研究最早来自于他在瑞士的观察，他和他的妻子在那里有一栋小房子，他们每年都去。最后他们去了瑞士学习关于村落的核心知识和想法。很明显整个20世纪八九十年代的欧洲都在讨论农村和农村人口减少的问题。相反，他看到他经常去的那个村子在发展，那里的房子越来越多。所以我在思考，为什么一方面我们在争论乡村缩水，与此同时出现了越来越多的房子。我也在想是什么在最初使他意识到这些奇怪的现象发生，让他开始研究。确实这个问题可能更关乎富人和乡村的状况。农村正在从简单农业向精英模式转变，你能得知那些越来越多的房子其实是城市人的产业，他们都有专人照顾他们的猫和狗。这是最近农村的最新态势，这使人非常感兴趣。因此我在思考，某种意义上，这也是对城市转型为只有快乐、只有愉悦、只有美好事物的回应。我们开始把生活中所有外在的不好事物都排除在城市之外。

这是另外一个我感到有趣的点，但就库哈斯先生的兴趣而言，他正在做很多该类型的项目（图11—图12）。他去年完成了很多大型项目，今年也会继续，但我认为他的主要精力还是放在这个项目上，这很令人激动。我也会做这方面的工作，如你所见，还有很多工作需要完成。

Q35有多少国家和地区参展？

8个或9个，但可能也有一些会分散在欧洲。我们看到移民潮从非洲流向欧洲，跨越了整个大陆。他们其中很多人抵达了意大利，或者去了德国，这是一部分，但还有一部分展品是观察南美和智利的成果，反映美国富人是如何买下智利的一部分的。

还有一部分是关注海洋的，这个课题更大一些，但是这一部分我还没有看到太多东西。我们可能看到海洋里的城市化，也可以描述这个状况并从能源、粮食或者数据中心的层面对它进行规划。

我觉得我们越来越能预见，未来会发展没有人类居住而以海洋为基础生产设施的城市。如果你有庞大的、已经有了海洋数据中心的渔场，那么你就已经为在海里做设计准备了一些材料。我觉得规划海洋听起来很有趣。人们需要修路吗？在我看来那是城市化层面另一个有趣的点，这种产业景观是城市化的规则。

内华达州有一个很有趣的事。在沙漠里，有一个是硅谷很多公司放置庞大数据中心的地方。它刚好在加州的边界上，因为如果在加州他们得付很重的税，所以所有硅谷企业的基础设施都转移到了内华达州。在这个村落或者安置点，只有大量的仓库、货箱，几乎没有人，因为有电子眼。问题来了，你怎么看待这里的城市化？你要怎么设计，还需要铺路吗，需要路标吗？或者你可以忽略这一点，因为这里没有人。正常来说城市由人组成，但如果当你做设计的时候排除人类会怎样呢？这些都是基础的问题，我们没有答案，但至少我们可以开始思考了。这很有挑战性，也很有趣。因为目前为止几乎所有专业都是围绕人的。当你把人这个元素剔除出去会发生什么呢？这么做不是因为我们讨厌人类，我们爱人类，只是刚好可能有全新的领域要去探索。机器人做的是什么?它想要什么？可能我们只设计植物或者机械。

我们正在和几个大学合作。其中一所大学是荷兰的瓦赫宁根大学，他们有庞大的农业研究计划。他们正在做各种完全不同的研究。我们跟一些人做过很有趣的对谈，他们在制造苍蝇幼虫，想以巨大的产业化规模生产这种动物，用来喂猪。这种方法基本上比用大豆制造更可持续，耗能更少，效率更高。但是现在越来越多动物保护组织开始保护这些幼虫的权益，因为幼虫可能也有意识，他们希望制订新的规章。有点像我们对待猪那样，我们应该尊重动物，所以我们也应该尊重幼虫。这是一个全新的事物，幼虫需要得到尊重，这样每个群体才能有姓名。

图 12 / Figure 122014年威尼斯双年展意大利的世界 / Monditalia

Q36 OMA希望和中国一些机构或公司开展怎样的工作？

对我们来说，更重要的是和其他规划人员进行沟通。比起去规划一个地区，这些人才是我们更想合作的。我的意思是有些建筑设计公司做得很好，他们有雄伟的蓝图，做了很厉害的工作，但是这不是我们所寻求的合作。我们对文化合作更感兴趣。并不是说要把我们的想法强加给中国，而是说我们想有更多的交流。对于库哈斯的理想我们会有不同的方法，也欢迎这些想法。举例来说，我们现在已经和CAFA中央美术学院合作了。对我们来说更重要的是要向外界表明，我们作出了选择，我们想要变得活跃，但不仅仅只是通过承接大项目的方式，虽然这很重要。或许因为CCTV大楼人们可能会想，好一个大建筑师，他只在乎做大设计，不在乎其他事情，但我们不是这么看待这座建筑的，我们想要表达的是，我们也在向外界学习，学习中国的工作方式，而不仅仅只想要单纯做大项目。我们的目标也不是为了变得无比富有或无比辉煌，而更多地想让双方的合作更有意思。如果我们能做到，就最好不过了。我认为这也是库哈斯先生的想法。他真的很想让大家看到OMA和他的工作，能更多关注这些点，这是有层次和有不同趣味的。

Q37像您之前所说的，如果我们找到了一块普通的乡村用地，我们就能理解乡村所需的现代基础设施和服务。您如何在中央美术学院建筑学院的教学中发掘这些点?您认为分层提取信息是一种通用且有效的研究方法吗?

嗯，关于教育，我们之前已经讨论过了。要去尝试和发现不止一种设计技巧，要更注意去理解客户所想，也要注意设计的不同形式。我们不是在做一个出色的图纸，而是将你的时间和想法投入进课题里。至少这就是我想告诉大家的。

图 13 / Figure 132014年威尼斯建筑双年展《建筑元素》展 /Elements of Architecture, Venice Biennale 2014

Q38 《建筑元素》（Elements）和当下对乡村的研究方法有相似之处吗？您认为学生做的研究中最重要的是什么？

我认为库哈斯先生和我的相似之处体现在，我们都认为，只要你以一种新的方式看待事物，基本上生活中任何事情都可以是有趣的。因此比如对一个无趣的杯子，仍然可以提出一百个问题，为什么这个杯子是正的，为什么它是塑料的，为什么是纸板的，它从哪来，究竟为何这个世界上大家都能有一样的杯子，你知道后面的产业流程吗？这只是一个很简单的例子，但是总的来说，我们发现乡村共有的那些日常用品和平凡的物品，如果你从新的角度去看待它，就能变得非常有趣。

这就是20世纪六七十年代库哈斯先生在当作家时候得到的经验，他从一些艺术思潮中学会了如何去欣赏这些东西。我对此表示赞同，因为我也确实认为即使是日常用品也用很多故事可以讲。“建筑元素”（图13—图14）就是很好的例子，我们已经发掘过厕所的历史，还有屋顶和斜坡等都有很多故事可以讲。库哈斯先生是我见过最有好奇心的人。这也是为什么他总是很渴求新的信息。

我也是个很有好奇心的人，所以我也有很多想知道的。但是和库哈斯先生比起来，我就显得很微不足道。当我和他一起旅游的时候，他会走进机场的书店买下所有你能见到的杂志。当航班结束要起身的时候我就能看到一个书堆。无论去哪，他总是买新的，他一直把信息灌输给自己。我觉得，在他的私生活中，他也极度有好奇心。他不总是那个最好相处的的人，他体内有很强大的能量、欲望和动力，但他在很多方面也能很友好、有趣幽默。我必须强调一点，他真的是个很有趣的人。

Q39 在您的建筑研究生涯中，对你影响最深的是什么？您在Volume E的工作是否让您对建筑和文本工作有新的了解？

在Volume E杂志社的工作是我第一份建筑领域的工作。我写了部分论文。至于对我最深的影响是什么，我认为，驱使我的恰好也是好奇心。还有一个事实，就是建筑和城市化是不可避免的。如果你早上起来睁开眼睛往窗外看，第一个就会看到建筑，其次你会看到城市化。我觉得这也是驱使我的一大原因。它很有效，同时也是生活中不可避免的一部分，意味着你必须为它做点什么。对我来说，至少你会想去理解它、改变它、感受它，了解它怎么运作以及对其他人来说意味着什么。

在那里，我受到了历史学的培训，专攻中世纪和文艺复兴建筑，更主要是教堂。我同时也很喜欢宗教建筑，因为我认为它们是人类建造的最疯狂的建筑。因为他们建造了一个精神用途，而非实际用途的东西。我觉得这很有趣。这其中投入了多少热忱、时间、金钱、权力，只为了建造这种家族性、精神性的建筑。

如何建造这种很棒的建筑对我来说仍然是个谜。上一次在中国台湾，我第一次去了在中国的天主教堂，令人印象深刻。我深受触动。那一次我们也去了台湾的寺庙，它们也很漂亮，也给我留下了很深的印象。我是精神性建筑的“大粉丝”。

图 14 / Figure 14建筑元素：立面，门，阳台，电梯 /Architectural Elements: Facade, door, balcony, escalator

Q40 有一些建筑师和城市设计师对普通城市很感兴趣，因为我们在寻求更多人们使用空间的方式。我们把它看作城市或者小村落的基本要素。20世纪80年代，我们开始了小村落的斗争，想找到这种小村落背后的社会经济现象，您怎么看待城市或者村庄社会经济层面的普通元素呢？

这是一个很难的问题。但目前为止我注意到城市和农村有很多现象是一样的。它有着相同的因子，面对着相同的社会或者经济上的挑战。某种程度上来说有点令人绝望。有时候人们想要变得独特，独特会通向成功，这是一种创造性的驱动力，能让事情与众不同，但是同时这意味着我们怀着相同的抱负。所以我总是在思考是不是要变得独特，还是说不变得独特也没关系。这是一个基本问题，你也可以在这个例子中看到。所以有时候我认为我总是读《普通城市》是因为它带了点讽刺意味。

他在文中取笑了很多事情，同时回应了这些类似于你是谁、个人定位、你是否独特或者变得普通化能不能行的基本问题。我喜欢这种对立。这不是你能解决的，也不是你能挑战的。你总是夹在“要变得独特”和“坚持自我”中间，然而你必须接受一般和普通，但你也要能够打破自己的平均水平，挑战自己。

所以我把它视作个人的一个挑战，要保持积极，坚持对自身的思考，并参与其中，反思自己是谁。至少我能看到一般和独特之中有着能让人认清自己定位的价值。像是一直照镜子，而不是做一些疯狂的举动。

在形态学的泛型研究之后，我认为还能有很多探究的地方。20世纪初曾经有过很多社会理想，而我们现在仍然能看看我们能找到什么新的话题。

因为住在乡村能有更多空间，所以我看到了比城市更大的实验空间，也因为城市变得如此经济、如此束缚、如此狭窄。我不是建筑师，但我能看见我的同事们苦恼于如何在规划、经济和探索中寻求平衡来做设计，但是总是难以施展。每个实验空间最后都会被抛弃。或许在乡村可以找到让他们重新思考的空间。我认为这在某种层面上也是库哈斯先生的抱负，他能看见形态学上的机遇，符合他对乡村的乐观态度。那里还能有留给新事物的空间。

注释

Notes

1 “乡村——世界的未来”展览中中央美术学院工作坊，课程导师团队包含OMA事务所主持建筑师雷姆·库哈斯客座教授，斯蒂芬·彼得曼客座讲师；吕品晶教授，李琳副教授，史洋讲师。

Q1 Most Chinese people are already familiar with OMA, but they seldom hear about AMO. Could you please briefly introduce OMA and AMO and your research projects?

OMA(Office For Metropolitan Architecture, OMA)started around 1975,was founded by Rem Koolhaas and his wife, Madelon Vriesendorp,and another couple, Elia Zenghelis and Zoe Zenghelis together to do architecture projects.But Rem also had a career as a writer. He wrote Delirious New York,and before that he was a journalist and working for a popular magazine in Netherlands. So there was always an element of narrative, of storytelling and of thinking that goes beyond just line embedded in how he became an architect. And for a long time that remains also a bit on the background. But then the more, the project develops. And also the larger the office became, at some point, it became more logical to start a different department within the office, which only looks at the thinking side of architecture.

So trying to establish ways of working with clients to understand what they actually wants, and also why they want, what they wants, and then to work on this aspects. And this is why AMO was founded basically to question things and also to look at new developments which might make architecture more exciting and also cross interdisciplinary. So this is why it was founded. And I have been working with Rem on this type of projects for around 13 years and then normally do go into various directions from politics to reservation, to design, sometimes to exhibitions,to publications. So a better,an brilliant, a very broad direction of interests of things that happen. I think that you just want to know you’re curious about. So it is also a machine that looks at curiosity, trying to understand the world, why it is functioning in the way it functions.

Q2 So Rem is a thinker as well,not only architecture,an urban designer?

I think you see that in the beginning, there was were more urbanism, or more dreams of urbanism at least. And then, at some points, it gets a bit lower. OMA leaves urban design a bit and goes more towards architecture. But then starting from the year of 2000 again, sometimes also master planning. But it's a difficult profession. As you know,architecture is difficult, but maybe urban design is even more difficult.

Q3 what scale of OMA now is? How many people works in OMA?

OMA is around between 250 or 300 people, I think, with offices in New York, and here in Beijing,in Hong Kong and Rotterdam, and some very small satellites in other parts where there is also a construction going on, and in Paris, London, the middle east. Also there is a small branch in Milan operated by one of the partners who’s Italian and does Italian projects from Milan.

Q4 Are most of them architects? Is there any urban designer or other major?

Yeah, I think there are some urban designers as well. Very different. I, myself, am not a designer.I'm a historian. And we also had a journalist, people with the background of biology and some very different backgrounds. It's more like you should have a very good basic skill set and then you can think. It's more of a prerequisites to working there so that you are ambitious, that you are positive,that you are a diligent. I think those are the most important factors of being in the office.

Q5 Will you use a lot of time to do research, and do something like analyzing the storyboard and then drawing? So drawing is not the first step, is the next step in the moment, right?

Yes,this has been the case for quite some time.Because most of the times you really don't understand your client and you don't understand who he is, what he wants and why he wants. So you have to really spend a lot of time on that part. And normally by the time that you've fi gured out what he wants, you also have figured out what the design could be. So that goes hand in hand. And it's one of the best cases for Rem. It's a very personal process where you really get to know a clients very well also because you'll share a lot of years together.You share a lot of financial decisions together.You share a lot of ideas together. So you it's very important to keep this very close relationship with your client. It's not just somebody who comes in and orders hamburgers.

Q6 When you talk with client of OMA, are they not only architects but also many others from other background talking with clients together?

Yes. It's a process that I still like a lot, I think there's still might be a need for more of that. Yeah,not only in China, but everywhere.This type of personal relationship to your work can bring a lot of extra bene fi ts to the quality of the work.

Although it can also make you go mad. I think it's overall, the more committed you are, the better normally a design becomes. This's also what I tried to tell the students: Really be close to your clients,listen very well, but also ask him or her questions,uncomfortable questions, you know. Be honest,that's also a bit of a Dutch tradition. The Dutch are very open and very straightforward. You ask the question and you will get maybe an answer you don't like. I also like the way other cultures fi nding other clever ways to do this.

Q7 What do you think of relationship among clients and designers and government stuffs in architectural design process in China?

The relationship's exist, not only in China, all over the world. I am not sure if that is very special. I think it's everywhere that you have a lot of possibilities to make through closer collaboration, better design work.But, I think China has its own speed,of course, on its own temperament.So I think maybe there is a difference in the sense of thinking about time. That's Europe is still slower in thinking about time than China, which is very clear when you look at urban development. But for example,in the countryside, you can also think a bit more longer term. The fact that buildings are not main to last. That's a very deep tradition, I think, in China.That even is centuries old, whereas in Europe perhaps that idea is still split between a lot of heritage,a lot of things that are preserved, but also a lot of very cheap and bad construction there. And this is one of the things that interest me and also historian,of course, because I look at things from a historical perspective most of the times that I wonder a lot about the speed of development and how can you manipulate it, or how can you make it more productive, perhaps.

Because you also see that in early modernity and in Europe there's been an idea that buildings last for 40 years. And then after that, buildings were supposed to be gone or disappear. But now you see, obviously past the sixty～seventy years, you still see these buildings which remain. Actually, it's very difficult to replace them now, because they were sold to people who spent a lot of money. So you cannot just go out and demolish it.

So then you're still far more longer than forty years stuck with buildings. So I think this might also be the case for China, where you know, there's a lot of people thinking that, Okay, we're gonna do it fast and 40 years later, we're going to make a new one.I think it might become difficult speci fi cally when you look at urban design. Because urban design, is very difficult to change even after sixty years, after a hundred years. You will be stuck with choices done hundred years before. And that's a very diffi-cult, very challenging proposition.

I think it would be more bene fi cial to think really long term. It's really try to make buildings that can somehow change, but you don't have to tear them down anymore. But you build a very good standard quality and only have to make few changes over the hundred years that the building is there. And it used to be normal for architecture until eighty years ago. Before that, all architecture was all at least in the west was built with the idea that it would stay,it would last.

I think that's a tradition we have to somehow reconnect two or three think of how we work with cities on that time scale.

Q8 Do you like Beijing?

Yes, I like it very much.I have seen quite some parts of the town. I like the inner city area. But some of the preservation works are always inspiring. They don't have their originality, some of them anymore. It's a bit fake, which also happens everywhere including Amsterdam.

But like Wang Jing area, I like it because it's very normal and just relaxing. People are having a good life. Also the quality of the weather are much better, I think. Now even in Europe they are reporting that Beijing is breathable again. As soon as I came back to Europe,I said to people, It's not that bad any more, and you should go there. And now fi nally, in Europe, they're saying, Beijing is a bit cleaner now. So also more people from the west will come again.

I always feel a bit sad that there are so few people from the west coming here to China. I think there's so much to see, so much things you don't know,you've never seen. You never thought about such a different atmosphere, which would really help a lot of Europeans in terms of getting a new perspective in the world. So I always try to encourage people to come. Come, enjoy and have fun!

Q9 And have you been to other cities in China? like Shanghai, Hong Kong or somewhere else.

Yes, but now also more in the countryside. Last time we went to Taiyuan. We went to Dazhai (大寨) village, which was amazing. It's strange and it has very strange way. We went to Yubulu (雨补鲁）, Wencun, Shouguang, Wuzhen, amongst many other places. And still there are so much to see.

Q10 Is that a village, town or a city, you think? How do you classify that?

The capital, our largest city is seven hundred thousand inhabitants. So for me, I think it is a city.I come from a village which has forty thousand inhabitants. It has such a great diversity in places. It's amazing. You are blessed with very rich country. I mean, I don't say it for fl attery, just say because I've had such different experiences in one country.

Q11 So the inner city of Beijing reminds you of Amsterdam or somewhere?

Yeah, but like inner cities, a lot of places become“factories for tourists”. And I don't say it's bad, because there are truly great things to see of course.If you live in Amsterdam, you hardly go to the inner city anymore because of it. I like the Chinese national museum, the imperial relics. We went to very good duck restaurants with Karl Otto Ellefsen who is the professor from Norway, who I am also working with for Chinese projects. We had some good time.

Q12 So do you know which city is Rem’s favorite of china? What's his opinion of that city?

Well, it's difficult to say what his opinion is. However, I know he does like the city of Beijing a lot.For some time he also traveled a lot to Hong Kong.He also likes there. I think for Beijing just because of the political center and also the all of the size of the innovation has been a favorite, and also that is a very different city in terms of configuration and types of urbanism. I think it's rather unique.Because some parts of it are a bit more stretched out, bit more Los Angeles type of city with not only one center, but with many centers. You have very relatively, also low rise areas for some parts,-combined with highrise. So you have very big mix of types of urban development and this was also very important when OMA was designing CCTV to add something to this landscape we did not wish to build the CCTV tower looking like any other of these towers, but to add something really new to this landscape. And that's why I think it is a very authentic response to the existing urban condition of Beijing. I think it's a fantastic building. I like it very much.

Q13 Do OMA want to do something like this in other cities?

Well, I think it was a very unique opportunity on a very unique moment. Also looking at it from a historical perspective,it's a building that will never be repeated. This is a once in a century building,because there was the political ambition to support it. There was the economic condition supporting it. There was the design support in it. I think the moment that three of these things come together,It's like the stars that come together at one point. I won't see it happen very soon again, as such a level of ambition is made into reality.

It tries to make an urbanism that it's not only sort of on a horizontal level, but it tries to create more three dimensional form of the organism. At least for me. I'm not an urban designer, so I can't fully comment on it, but that's always how I see it as trying to do something new on this horizontal and vertical system that urban design is this and then architecture is this. And this one tries to be.

From the program also it made sense. There was a very huge request from the client or a lot of space, and CCTV is a very complex organization.So I think this loop actually really helped both the thinking of the broadcasting and the functioning of the company. It's not just only as a beautiful thing. It’s also pragmatic. There's operational idea behind it.

Q14 Actually you mentioned some avenue is stable and should go back to the start point in the history. My question is about what is your object of the generic village. Does generic village have any relation to the generic city? And are you going to look for some stable element in the village or in the cities?

It's a very good question. I think the generic village project is a bit cut between where we were not sure if we would call it standard village or generic.

And it's still a bit in between those two words. We were originally at least tempted by feedback from the school. We just did this project about six villages which are special and with unique features.And then there was, I think, one correct comment from the parts of the school which they said. But these are special, what about the other three million villagers? What can you say about those? That was a very good question. Because how can you say something about such a diverse landscape in such a diverse elements. So that we took that seriously,and we tried to find out what is the standard village.

So we did more research, which we have been doing to understand what is the basic condition in the countryside and for using statistics and using other research. And what we, I think, aim to do and with this project in the end, this to come to a level that we can try to help all of these villages basically with some basic functioning and and sort of some new thing, spatial thinking, some ways to optimize their existing conditions. Although there are sometimes, you know very humble conditions, but still that you can try to communicate with this type of areas as a designer, because economically for most of the times, it would make sense to get all of us,all of people from the cities, people from abroad to a one small village somewhere. It doesn't make sense from economics. So what do you do? How can you still help these people?

And this is a bit why this project and you still see a big need. I think in order to make the countryside even better and make it more lively that people want to stay and have a good life there. You need to somehow show them things and ways of how to do that. So this is a struggle. I think, that this project is. And I'm not saying that we will be able to achieve everything and we will be able to help everybody. But at least we have the ambition to see how can we operate in this landscape, which is so difficult.

With urban development,there is always lots of money involved and which makes sometimes it's easier to propose things. But with the countryside,it's a bit of a different proposition. So you have to also think differently. So this is what we are developing a bit. And it's really just testing and experimenting. So we hope that maybe we will get to the point that we will be able to declare a generic village, but not just yet. And also, I think in a different way than the original text of Rem was trying to communicate more as is a sign of hope and a sign of and a new condition where life in the countryside is again, grades and appreciated and not considered as a step back or step that it's actually a fantastic place to to be.

Q15 Do you find any similarity between the Chinese countryside and the European side or even the countryside in the united states?

I think Europe is in between the US and China in that respect. So we know a bit of both worlds.We know how empty sometimes the the American countryside already is. It's already nobody living there, very few villages, and all machines and robots partially. And the other side, China with around maybe depending on where you ask around three million villagers very tight spatial configurations. So really a lot of villages are existing and also continuing to exist, just like small settlements, small communities. And I think Europe is a bit in between where we have both. We have a lot of robots and we have empty parts of the country side. But we have very successful, flourishing villages. We also have movements where people from the cities are actively moving back to the countryside, which you also see in China sometimes.

So we have a bit of both, and I understand both. And also I sometimes stay in America. The vastness of the landscapes is also impressive. So somewhere in between that I can appreciate, it'll be both. And for the Chinese villagers, there's, I think, quite a good future for some of them. I think we should manage to get them more spatial interesting, and also we should manage to somehow give them the confidence that they need to be there, to be part of the twenty first century and the arrogance that the city normally always has. They also need to be more strong, I think.It's the countryside when it can also be more say, oh,you guys in the city, you just go.

Q16 Actually you illustrated the future of the urban design in the 80% of a digitalization. And you also mentioned a robot,a village of robot. So I just wonder, in the future will the city disappear and only exist the full of villages or small settlements,merely connected by the digital facilities or robots?

I think, like many things are always a bit of both,life will increasingly be split between city life and countryside life. And people will be constantly moving. That is you have half of your time living in the countryside, and half of your time living in cities. I think this will seem to be the most plausible future for me. When the internet started, there has already the idea that now the spatial organization will change dramatically. And since you don't have to be in an office anymore, you will not go to an office anymore.

But I obviously didn't really work out like that.You see, obviously, things have changed, but not as dramatic, that there would be no office anymore.So you see, but still people are more and more working in cafes and bars. You get a bit of foggy.

So I think that life in general will be with more digital. It becomes that you look for different places where you feel at home, where you feel comfortable and where either you're close to family,maybe. It will become more of importance. And then really urban or rural. It's more where are the others? And Okay, I go there. So it becomes a bit more independent.

Q17 Do you think density is still important for cities?

I think density is much more difficult to calculate by now. It's always been an idea that you can calculate it, but it's very hard. When you look in detail,for example, if you want to catch these new patterns of, you know of living here and living there,then you obviously come very quickly into statistical difficulties like, somebody's registered in the city, but spends half of the time in the countryside.So how do you register that? Yeah, and this is very difficult. So you have new experimental techniques where there are more tracking people with internet devices on the calculators to get an idea of density.I think the notion is very difficult. It's becoming increasingly difficult to say what it is. Because everybody is just like butter fl ies and they're everywhere,or more and more people at least. So this idea of density is at the same time you see that you know,urban development and house pricing and cities are extravagance at least in Europe, but also here in Beijing. You see how much people are willing to pay for a relatively small amount of space in the city that is not the most comfortable city in China sometimes.You would also see the same situation in the Netherlands. The people in Amsterdam pay really lot of money, whereas like thirty minutes away you can get like double amount of space and save money.And you think there must be still something is, you know, pulling people to these cities. It remains.You get like a Ying Yang (阴 阳 ) effect that you then want to have release there, and want to go here.

Q18 There is a theory that to make people go to the city and then we can release the land in the countryside to give it back to the nature, do you agree?

That happens already a lot. All you have to check is food. Food production still consumes a lot of land, of course, and that's something we cannot really live without.

But apart from that, there's also in which Holland very experimental techniques with which they are growing food containers, which could also create a totally new thing for what nature is in life. If you can grow vegetables in a container somewhere in the city, you don't need the outskirts of the city anymore for this type of production. Then you could maybe need closer proximity to nature again.So there might be some things are changing there too.

Q19 Like urban agriculture?

No. It's far more advanced than that. I think urban agriculture so far has been always a bit the only doing like little things, like little piece of salad,and like some herbs. Exactly it's not really what you use to feed yourself. But there are experiments by big growers of tomatoes, for example. They try them on an ambitious scale. It's not just like little things, but the real food that you have all of the wheat, which will be very difficult like some of these products will be very difficult to grow in these conditions. But for vegetables, for example,you really don't need any ground. It's a waste of money to use only fl at surfaces. I think that's what they are now experimenting with. So there's also a very strong economic drive in it, which is also given the shape to cities as they are. You know why they organized the way they are is purely economics. But you see with your technology, you see is there some things are changing because they are making these things super optimal, like they are not wasting any energy, like every drop of electricity goes directly into the production of tomato.

Q20 Maybe the second or third generation of the farmers who have worked in the cities have realized some difficulties in the cities. So they would like to go back to the countryside. But as you said, the other life is also the dream. So I don't think we will go to the countryside directly.Maybe they will stay a double life between urban and countryside because they are weak in terms of economic aspect. So I think they may be forced to stay in the cities and the villagers who stayed there before will continue to move to the cities,or maybe a small town. But on the other side, the rich people in the cities will go outside the company. They will brought a new lifestyle in the countryside. So they may replace the original local culture.What do you think about the future of the Chinese countryside?

That’s very interesting. It's a bit historically how in Europe these things also went. If you look back to sixteenth, the seventeenth the century, urban and rural life that need cities were very like Amsterdam. But the city was very difficult to live in because of the weather and very basic sanitation.There were obviously no modern facilities. So there's stories that you could smell the city of Amsterdam from fi ve kilometers away. So it 's somehow very difficult to live in the city. So that's why all the rich people had big country estates around the city with huge land. And you see that need, the countryside as a place for rich people is not a very important theme and it's a lot of big driver of development. And they also with them, even when in roman life. It's the same pattern.

Q21 Do you think that automatic driving,if in the future, will change a lot for the relation of the countryside and urban?

I think probably also the political will of a country will be determining. I think the political system will, in the end, be an important factor in how you work with your countryside. Because it's actually, it's a space where the market economy is not strong. You know, urban life is quite easy to capitalize in different ways. I think there's always a lot of money involved. It makes that the market economies goes very fast there. But I think the spatial conditions in the countryside are different and it's more difficult for the market to adapt and also to take risk in these areas where there is a small market only.

And the moment that you have a state that intervenes and that the political system that can say,now we need to consider the countryside. That is a big difference in terms of power and also how you develop it. And, what are the opportunities, how do you keep the good life available for everybody.So I think in that sense, I'm very curious to see also how the Chinese government can,will and is modeling this countryside. In Europe, much of this is left to the markets. And also in America. You see basically that the countryside is a very poor condition because there's no government who wants anything or has an idea of what should happen in this countryside.

I mean, for Trump, most of his supporters are in the countryside who have not received anything from him yet. Still, the roads are still bad. There's still no train connections. They're still stuck in poverty in many areas. They have not received, I think, any bene fi ts so far from his government because he has no idea, because I think that he doesn't have the political will behind him to make something out of the countryside. And here at least and you can obviously see, there's a the Chinese government,at least see a huge drive to invest to do something.Maybe like sometimes difficult to pinpoint the idea, but there is an idea. And this is, I think, a big difference, which does make China unique for me.Even if it might also lead sometimes to failures or mistakes.

Q22 I used to read an article that is the definition of the generic city. So how about the generic village? Does OMA will get another definition to the generic village or not?

Yeah, but we might be going to a standard village.I think generic city was an important text which was the result of Rem doing research in Singapore,which he tried to describe the all the average mix that he encountered somehow all these, and he wanted to express that somehow. I think the work,the way we are interpreting the word generic is different in the sense that we take the generic as a starting point for developing something that can create fantasy or that can create alternatives, visions, different outcomes, but sort of to start out at least with the standard. So what is the average condition in a place? And then to see, okay, how can you know from that generic condition, establish plausible ways of very speci fi c directions. A bit like that, I mean, the parent village is a very tiny, tiny,tiny example of course, but there are also a bit of how can you now even for a very average village,gave them advice to make it more adventurous,more challenging, more specially interesting. And how do you do that process? This is what I think hopefully we will end up with.

Q23 You know, in China now we often want to combine the villages together because the schools in villages are small.And It’s a general option to put the education in the town. Then the villages around the town can share the education resources there. But for the villagers, the parents think that is very far away. They can not send their children to the town.However, they don't want to let their children miss their educational opportunities.So it is two sides. What do you think about it?

It's quite different in China because the population here is quite large. It's a very important topic somehow, because we saw it when we visited professor Lv’s project in Banwan (板万 ) village. He was invited to build a professional school in this village.And he made a fantastic project in the countryside in Guizhou for a new school which looks good.But then local government decided to half close the school and move children to the school in the town.There was just a great new building that they built.I think of trying to keep the part of the school's still in the village and only have part of the students go to the town. There's still, I think, but it shows you a bit, of course, also the lack of power sometimes an architect has when politics takes control. And I understand also why this project is actually important for the village, because it was really coherent social connection. And I understand also from the school's perspective, probably might not be easy to get teachers and very high quality teachers to go and live in a very small village. I think that's probably a big challenge and I understand that as well.It's easier to get teachers to move to the larger village or large town. But still it would be somehow that I still want to preserve this small local schools.You have to face diversity and also the ways of teaching. And then you still have to have different spatial conditions.

I don't know too much about the education system in China. It seems that either you go to university,a large school, high school or whatever, then you are more set in. When you just join a company, you get your training from a company perspective or from a construction team. For example, for building, if you want to become a plumber, or if you want to build toilets, you just learn it on the job.This is not the case in Europe. In Europe, there's a kind of school in between. So fi rst you learn to become a good plumber, and then you go and work as a plumber. And this is where, I think, something that would be interesting to add. Maybe because you just see that the level of quality of that type of craftsmanship, It's a bit higher in Europe than here.Lots of time when you see even newly finished buildings, you may become disappointed at observation of the details.

It’s craft and you have to learn how to do it. It's not simply just copying the other guy, but you also think it's a very important step of building making something good is very important somehow.

Q24 If you came to Beijing ten years before, the quality of that was worse than now. And you know the government of Beijing wants to improve the toilet. You see now almost every subway station has toilets. It has been changed.

Yeah, we can go further. Because I still notice that even like very recently finished buildings, they sometimes like there's not so much attention for making them perfect somehow. But I like this idea of perfection, and I would like to contribute this in my work here.

Q25 Most of the villages in China still serve the cities. In recent years, especially driven by the policy of "urban-rural integration development", most of the rural areas around developed cities have increased their economic income due to the demand of urban residents for tourism,commerce and trade. As far as I know,in Europe, the relationship between rural and urban development may not be so close, that is to say, the countryside does not rely particularly on the city to drive itself. What do you think of this situation?What are the advantages and disadvantages of these two models?

Now Europe is a bit similar if you look around the city of Amsterdam. You already have this process of the rich of moving through the small villages quite established this stuff, cute little areas that still need somehow pristine are doing very well.

But then it's more like when you go outside of the city limits, when it's two hours' way driving to the large city, then things become really desperate.They are in a very difficult position. So some proximity to cities gives this type of encouraging rural and urban exchange. And then I think infrastructure is a big part of that productivity. As long as there is sort of enabled, I think that's why the huge efforts of China are made with the highways, and rail connections in the airplanes, which makes a lot of sense. Because it really improves the accessibility to infrastructure for the countryside, which takes a very important factor in this equation.

Q26 So in the village you want students to study for the program. Is that the same thing like the infrastructure you said before?

If there's other program that you can develop,which is more interesting, for example, the schools.I think it's a very interesting thing to see if you equip with new technology. If you could fi nd a way to make the schools keep as a part of the program at the village and how to make it in a way that it works economically and specially, it is a good way to think for people as a key project.

Q27 Mr. Koolhaas once talked about"Preservation" in an interview, mentioning that 12% of the earth's surface exists under some kind of protection system, that is, these parts will remain unchanged. Do you think that 12% of the surface and the countryside intersect? What do you think of the relationship between the protection of ancient buildings and rural development?

That is an important project I worked with Rem.My background is History and the Theory of Building Preservation. So I worked with him on this topic quite a lot. So the twelve percent calculation was partially also mine. Obviously, twelve percent includes already lot of countryside and certainly not urban areas more to say.

Because it's nature preservation. Also, China has been expanding the amount of nature preservation a lot in the last years. And obviously, that contradicts or at least has to find a way to collaborate with on preserving the forms of development. Also in Europe, you have quite some landscapes which have both. They have the drive for modern food production and the drive to keep things as they were in the past. There are sort of difficulties, how do these two worlds meet, which is also a very big topic in the countryside.

How do you modernize without changing in a way.And this is obviously that it applies this landscape to buildings. How do you make sure that all buildings are sustainable? And you know the energy production is not too high. And then you know the key functioning. So this is a big big challenge,I think. It's underestimated how large part of the world is that we don't want to change anymore.Well, we still have obviously, a lot of new demands that come across that we have to produce food from people.

And in order to do so, you have to change things.But then we have the another system that is saying no no, everything should say and sometimes for good reasons, I mean. I'm also a building preservation guy. So also part of my education was really no changes. That's how I was trained, so to say not. But at the same time you see that sometimes it becomes impossible. But also because the reservation is always a one way road. And then you also get more, always have more and more. It's not that you say, okay, now this building is not part of preservation anymore that sort of show you can only become more instead of that.

So it's a huge challenge, but it's also very good for preservation because it means there's a lot of work.There are lots of interesting buildings that's the other thing you learn when studying this is obviously that you have to be in the lookout always, also when buildings are being demolished, if they are not valuable, maybe they are not recognized now as valuable. A hundred years from now, people say,Ah! why did they demolish that? So you always have to be on the lookout. Okay, which one of the buildings is good for preservation and also same as for the countryside? Which parts of the country side should we keep because it'll sit hundred years?Maybe my grandchildren will say, oh, stupid grandpa! He preserved the wrong things. Yeah, so it's a huge challenge. But it’s very interesting to think about.

Q28 Taobao Village is a hot topic recently discussed by Chinese. What do you think about this phenomenon? How did you feel after going to Taobao Village Conference?

I Think it's very interesting. I wrote this article about it, about Dongfeng (东风村), which was very inspiring, also got a lot of response in Europe and people are really curious about it and they don't know this thing of Taobao village. It's really completely new for other people. I see a lot of opportunities, but I also see a lot of challenges. Still.I see opportunities in a way that a new freedom to produce things wherever you want so that you in a perfect world, you can do without a city, that you don't need the city anymore as a hub to sort of that you have, you work in the countryside, you make a product, you ship it to the city where somebody sells it and to somebody else. So you have a different value chain. I think that's a really exciting prospect. But then if you saw in Dongfeng,there’s also new problems that emerge with it. That's also the social relationships in the village that you see that the people are successful.

Other people start copying it and try to make it slightly cheaper, and then the other guys to make it any cheaper so that in the end. You know, everybody starts losing because everybody is trying to compete too much with each other. And that also leads to poorer quality. And that's a very negative aspect, which you somehow have to try to change because or else it will become a system that also founded by Alibaba will not work because the quality will go down. So I see it as a there's a really interesting fundamental aspect. But then how can we make it more positive and that it's upward spiral, that encourages the villagers to become better rather than just, you know, killing each other.

Q29 So although Taobao villages named village, do you think it is run like a town,city or a village? What do you think?

This is always a bit difficult. In principle, I think that even like every form of development is basically urban. I think every village in the end also steps mini-urban development. So I think this contrast of that you have urban development, you have normal urban development is in a way a bit problematic for me, so you just consider this micro city or you can see cities like mega villages. I mean sometimes in the city that I grew up and worked in at one point. They are mega villages where these kind of people function a bit like the village where I grew up in. So I guess the system was fundamentally different.

There's larger scale; there's higher density and more stuff. But I think Taobao has an interesting future. They're also very interesting companies.Alibaba Group, and we want to collaborate to see how we can do on urban design and this type of bottom-up development can connect to each other,as I think they also need spatial development. It's very clear to me that at one point we will discover our discovering that just running the platform in the virtual world, sort of virtual urban design in the end, comes back to a real physical world. And then there is a task in it for them also to be able to maintain their own platform and to keep it inspiring and interesting for everybody. I think they will recognize that they need to become more active, just like you see in the west, for example, Google and Facebook, etc. You see them more and more realizing that they're not simply a platform. So far they always got away with saying, okay, we don't have opinions, we don't have any ideas, we just how's the platform. And now it's becoming is increasingly clear that they are used for political reasons that they are a vital player in how democracy functions and they have to sell then start making rules for that. So they cannot be any more saying we know nothing. It's the users who are doing it. They have to recognize this responsibility. I think that might be the same for Ali.

Q30 Do you think block chain will change? like something technology?You know that Alibaba group they pay a contribute a lot to the smart city. The situation is like the smart city in China, like Xiongan or some somewhere. So how what do you think of the smart city in the future?

This whole theory of block chain was always very inspiring, but it's doesn't matter. Smart city is good.It's a bit problematic for me. They've been promising smart cities for twenty or thirty years now.It's a disappointment somehow. Even the projects that, for example, google doing in Toronto. But they are doing their own urban development. It's not that good. It doesn't really have too much in the end. Maybe I'm very old or conservative, but I think most of these things. They are not adding that much value to life. They make it maybe slightly more comfortable. You can operate your apartment with your smart phone. And that's sort of the refrigerator knows when you're coming home. But for me, it's not very inspiring somehow. That's my big problem with it. It's not mean that I'm against it,but I just don't see the reason why I want this.

And for a lot of other things, I do want. To like a lot of this part from I like, but just for smart cities,it's never really been like it's always been very much like, I think, desperate IT companies looking for new business models and you recognize it and that makes me already like uninterested. So if this is the only way that you want me to give you more money, this is not going to work. You have to come up with something that I want, really want. And I will give you my money but not with that thing.

Q31 Is the opinion of Rem towards things almost same or different?

It’s different. But he's also very skeptical about it. I think how he thinks is how smart city thinks about life. That is about what people wants, desires,drives, dreams. Everything is just geared to optimization and just making things slightly better, and not about revolution, about spectacular things. It's only about having more comfort and more seamless stuff. So it probably is good for your life, but at the same time it is also very dull, boring, making life more predictable. Well, you see something like this, you know that google has also these things where they make art, that the algorithms to make art. And they always dull. These are pieces that never become something surprising. I think every business is like this, and they still keep doing it for some reason. Come on! Stop wasting glorious or stop wasting computer time and just have fun and spend the money on something else. Because this is not worth your money. I agree this to give more money to the arts and make the arts more funny.They're investing in the stupid technology. There's been an idea that if we only focus on technology, we will not know what the life will be in the 21th century. I think that's running through an end almost its been always very comfortable. Do not think politics or future, or dreaming. And just to say we can fi x it with the technology, which a lot of things you can do with technology.

But at the same time, at the same point, it runs out.And then we have to think again, you know, what do we really want exactly?

Q32 Maybe we can talk about the exhibition rural the future of the world. What would you like to say about the workshop for the exhibition?

Well, for the current idea, we are for the Chinese section, we are starting to get an idea of what we want to show. Basically I want to try to establish an overview of China's countryside ambitions, and also it's working. So how does it think and do at the same time. So we want to give an international audience looking into how the government tries to give a shape to the countryside in various levels.And because we think that for an international audiences is new. Normally a lot of governments don't have ideas about the countryside. And I think China does have ideas about the countryside. And we want to give a reading of that. So we want to share what it means if that is trying to deal with a lot of relevant topics. I think for the 21 century.And the way we are currently thinking about this in establishing like a temporary government office,almost which shows you the width and the broad mass of the interests, and what is happening in this country.

After that, we want to use all the research material we have developed. Add more ideas, more stuff,and also historical materials like all the posters. We want to see how we can share that with people to express their there.

Q33 And I saw our space is about 3-4 rooms in the exhibition.

Yes, and in October, we want to make 1:1 model in CAFA for an exhibition space in the architecture department to make a 1:1 model of the Guggenheim part in the building. So we can use it as a testing space and also to share some preliminary vision of what we hope to do. For the exhibition in Guggenheim, February 22, 2020 is the opening date. It's like a wedding day!

Q34 Would you talk about something about the exhibition, Rural-the future of our world?

Yes. It's a very imposing title that they chose.In the exhibition, I'm only doing the part of China. I did also work on the developing the larger narrative.Now I'm focusing only on this. And I think it will show in its ambition a very diverse landscape of the world, really also very fundamental questions that concerned the countryside, but also urban life.For example, one part will be about Russia and about the huge gamma frost that is melting and the release of methane gas, which will be for the climate, warming, and hugely impact food. So we are looking at a topic like that. But for example,another participant, Nicholas Maak, is looking at wildlife and nature in Africa of how the growing population of Africa has to share the land with wild animals and how do you do that. Because you know, we want to keep both somehow. How do you live together with a big monkey? How do you manage this life and also in terms of planning?How do you do it?

So the exhibition will broadly be focused on interesting starts in February next year. And it's still a lot of work. Just because it for Rem also for us is a very new terrain to think about. And for me as far as a researcher, also in terms of resources and in terms of references, archives and objects, it's very new to think about and very difficult if you ask me about it. It's been at least for me, a very new experience. And I think it's a very necessary experience to really think about the normal urban areas, also as a space for adventure, a space for growth, space for optimism and where something you can be located. Because I think the last years, you know for a lot of architecture and urban architecture, for me at least, it's a bit boring. We know what the big studios are. We know what they do, and they do good work. But at the same time, It's a bit good one. Nothing really gives you like, Oh! that's what I do see in the countryside, but people don't see it as architecture like these enormous greenhouse landscapes. Okay, for example, in Shaoguang (韶光). This is dramatic. This is new landscape, but nobody's ever written about them, or nobody really sees that as part of huge development. There is a lot of discovery there, at least for me.

Rem and I have been looking at it together since 2010, came from his own observations in Switzerland, where he and his wife has a little house there.I've had it for a long time. So they went every year.They went to Switzerland to distill village in the end of it. Obviously this whole talking about the countryside and how it's shrinking and everybody populating has been going on in Europe since the Eighties, Nineties. And contrary to that he saw the village he always went to be growing. There were more and more houses growing. So I was thinking how it is possible that on one hand we have this debate that everything is shrinking, but on the other hand there are more and more houses. And so,I think, what triggered with him for the fi rst time was there's something weird going on here. And he started looking into it, and it's indeed a bit more about the state of the rich and the country side, so that's village life transformed from simple farming into more elite type of results that you know more and more of the houses are owned by people from the city. And you know they have people taking care of the dog and the cats. And this is sort of the new shape in village. So he became very interested in that. And then I think in terms of and also as a response to how the city has been transforming into something that is only about pleasure, only about comfort, only about good things of life. And that's we have excluded all the bad things in life from the city that are all external.

I think this is the other one which is most interesting. But in terms of his interest, now he's working a lot on these projects. He fi nished a number of big architecture projects last year and he's also doing some architecture projects this year. But I think the majority of his time is in this project. It is pretty exciting. I also still have reservations, as you can see. There's a lot of affairs still needs to work on.

Q35 How many countries and regions include in the exhibition?

Maybe eight or nine, but sometimes also with scattered we have in Europe. We look also bit of migration and the fl ow of African migrants to Europe and they cross throughout the continent. So a lot of them arrive in Italy and they travel more to Germany, and that's a part. But there's another one part looking at the south America and then the Chile, and how rich Americans are buying up parts of Chile.

There's also one part about oceans. That's even bigger. I think in principle, I haven't seen too much about it. So it's only partially my own speculation,but I think that you could also do in urbanism for the sea. You could describe this landscape as well,and also start planning it, also in terms of energy,in terms of food, in terms of information data centers.

I think it's becoming closer and closer that we can develop cities which are not inhabited by humans,but production facilities more that are sea based.

If you have already enormous fi sh farms who have already kind of data centers which are in the sea,you have already some ingredients for every design in the in the sea. I think it sounds like a fun thing through how do you plan with the sea. Do you build roads? That's the other thing in terms of urbanism has an interest is in this production landscapes, what are the rules for urbanism.

There's a big interest in the area in Nevada, in the desert, uh, where a lot of Silicon Valley companies have huge data centers. And it's just across the border in California and it's there because in California you pay a lot of taxes. So all the infrastructure of Silicon Valley is pushed into Nevada. So you have this village or this settlement, which is only enormous warehouses and boxes and almost no people, because the boxes and robot eyes. Then the question is, what is the urbanism that is connected to that?

How do you design it? And do you need a pavement? Do you need a road signal, or can you forget about that there is like everything that is nobody? Normally the city is organized around the human. But what happens if you take the human out and start planning without human? So these are very fundamental questions that we don't have the answers of course, but at least we are about to start thinking about it. It's very challenging and interesting. Yeah, It's very cool because the whole profession has always been about humans. What happens if you take it out? And it's not because we don't like humans, we love them. But it's just that there might be really new areas to look into. What is a robot made of? What does he want? Maybe it is designed only for the pear trees.

We are collaborating with several universities. And one of them is a big university in Holland which is Wageningen University. There is huge agriculture.And they are doing all kinds of research, really different ones. But we had an interesting conversation with people who are making magnets, you know, a little before a fl y is fl ying. They are larvae. So they make this larva and if they want to make it on a huge industrial scale, and feed it to pigs, basically because it's more sustainable than to make soybeans. It takes less energy and it's more efficient.But now there are increasingly animal rights groups who are defending the rights of larvae because basically wish there should be new rules for how you can keep lively because they might also have a consciousness. And it also might like how we treat pigs. We have to treat animals in a respectful way.So you also have to treat larvae in a respectful way.So this is a whole new thing that it's not a pear tree,but also the larvae has to have in reality and has to be respected to get everyone of the mass to get a name.

Q36 What kind of collaboration OMA would like to do with some Chinese institutes or companies?

I think what more important for us in terms of communicating to other people in the planners and all these people is more that we are really looking for new collaboration forms which are not the typical that you know this is an urban area. I mean some architecture design company do a very good job in terms of common. They make or propose a big master plan and mission which is great. But it's not the collaboration we are looking for. We are more interested in cultural collaboration. It's not that we want to impose how we think on China,but it's more of a protest we want to engage more in an exchange. I think we have a different way of Rem’s ambition and we also welcome the different ways. So I think for us it's more of showing that, for example, we are in the collaboration with CAFA already. We chose different ways that we want to be active, not only by making big projects.You know, surely for us, this has been the important thing also because of the controversy around CCTV, that people think, here comes big for an architect, he designs the last big thing and then he doesn't care. But that's not the way we think that is what that building is and also what we want to say is. Because we also want to learn from outsiders almost how China works and how distinct in it, More than just doing simple or big projects, etc. It's not our mission to become incredibly rich or incredibly glorious. And this makes collaboration that are interesting in both sides. So anything we can do about that is, it will be really well, we would be fi ner. I think these from grams perspective as well.He'd really like to show people that OMA and his work is more about it, and it has really been the layers and different interests.

Q37 As you said before, if we fi nd a common rural area, we can understand the modern infrastructure and services that rural areas need. How do you explore this point in the teaching of Architecture Department of Central Academy of Fine Arts? Do you think the method of classifying layers to extract information is a general and most effective research method?Well, for the education, we already discussed it a bit that you trying to or fi nd it's one more than one design technique that you more focus on understanding what the client was, that you focus on a different form of design. And we're not in terms of making a brilliant sketch, but invest your time and you're thinking or with the project. I think this is what I try to at least give.

Q38 Are there similarities between the Elements and the current research methods in rural areas? What do you think is the most important in the research of students?

Well, the similarities with Rem is what we share.We both think that basically anything in life can be interesting if you just look at it in a new way.Therefore if you have this stupid cup, then you still find a hundred questions I could ask almost this cup, like why is it plus? why is this thing plastic?Why is this cardboard? Where does it come from?Do you know where, how, and why does everybody in the world now have the same cup? Do you know what is the process behind? So it's just very simple example, but I think in general we have the elements shared with the countryside is that everyday objects, mundane objects can be very interesting if you try to look at it from a new way.

This is a technique that Rem experienced in the 1960s～1970s from his time as a writer, where he through some art influences learned how to appreciate these things. And I feel very sympathetic towards it. Because I think indeed a lot of everyday objects have so many different stories to tell. And that element is a classical example of that. The history of the toilet, as we already explored, also the roof or the ramp, or all these things, are all the same. You know, there's so many stories to tell.

And, Rem is one of the most curious person that I have ever met. I think it will remain, that's way he has an incredible hunger for new information.

I'm also very curious person. So I also want to know a lot. But compared to Rem, I'm really quite,quite tiny. When I travel with him, he goes to book shop at the airport and buy all the magazines that you can find. And then at the end of the airplane and just get out and I see this big pile. Wherever the city he goes to, he buys new ones and he buys new ones and he constantly like feeding himself with information. I think, also in his private life,he is extremely curious. He's not always the most easy person. He's also very a lot of power in him, a lot of desire and a lot of drive. But he's also can be extremely friendly and curious and funny and on a lot of ways. Really fascinating human. I can really say that.

Q39 In your architectural learning career,what is the deepest impact on you? Does your work in VOLUM E give you a new understanding of architecture and textual work?

It was my first job in architecture which was to work for Volume E magazine. I did part of my thesis. As to what is the deepest impact, well, I think what drives me most is a bit also for this curiosity,but then also the fact that architecture and urban development is simply unavoidable. You open your eyes in the morning, and the fi rst thing you see is architecture. And the second thing you see is urbanism. If you look out to the streets in the city, it is the street. So that's I think what drives me most.It is effective. It's so unavoidable that it's such a part of your life. Uh, that automatically means that you have to do something with it, for me, at least that you have to want to understand it, change it,feel how it feels, how it functions, what it means to other people.

And in that, I'm trained as a historian, specialized in medieval architecture and renaissance and that mostly into churches. I'm still very enormous big fan of religious buildings, you know, because I think they are the most crazy buildings that humans make. Because you make something that is not of practical use, but it's about spiritual use. I think that has been incredibly fascinating. How much love,time, money, power has been spent on something that is so familial, so spiritual.

I think that is still a big mystery to me how made these great buildings. Last time in Taiwan, we went through. For the fi rst time I was in a Chinese catholic church, which was very impressive. I was very touched. Then also the same goes for the temples in Taiwan as well. They are so beautiful and I am so impressive. I'm a huge fan of spiritual buildings.

Q40 Some architects and urban designers are very interested in the generic city because we seek more explore ways to know people how to use the space. We think it is a basic element of the city and also for small settlements. And in the 1980s, we started the small settlements to fi ght, trying to fi nd social economy impacts behind the phenomena of such kind of the small villages. How do you think about the generic element or general animals behind the city and villages in terms of social economics?

That's a tough question. But I think so far I've noticed is that there're a lot of phenomena which villages and cities are the same everywhere. I have the same types of dynamics which show that the village and urban area are facing the same challenges. And this is somehow becomes desperate.Sometimes for people who want to be unique.You know. And that sometimes leads also to great things. This type of drive to make something that is unique. And that is something out of the ordinary.But at the same time, it may be an ambition that we all share to be unique. That is also at least I'm always for myself also, personally, always doubting whether you should be unique, or if it's okay to not be unique. I think that's a very fundamental question that you also see in this thing. I think partially how I always read generic city was full of irony.

He was making fun of a lot of things in the text and also responding to these types,like a fundamental question about who you are, about your own position. And I like that opposition. It's not something that you can solve. It's not something that you go up. It's this or is that, but you're always in fl ux and in between being unique and being part of yourself,which are generic and just average, you have to accept it. But it's always then also the input to break out of your own average and challenge yourself.

So I take it as a personal challenge to always be avtive and thinking about yourself and engaging and also working on re fl ecting on yourself of who you are. And that's at least the value I see in the opposition between generic and unique that you want to figure out who you are. And what it means to be uh,re fl ecting and looking in a mirror the whole time. And not to do sometimes crazy.

And after generic really things in terms of morphology, I think there's still a lot of things that can be explored. I think there's a lot of dreams in the beginning of the 20th century which we can still see how we can gets something new.

Living in the countryside where there is more space. I see there are more space to experiments than in cities because cities have become economically, so tied, so constricted. I'm not an architect,but I see my colleagues struggling so much to make all the fine balance between the planning committees and the economy and sought to make something and do something. But it is always very tight, very difficult. Every room for experiment is normally gets thrown out. Maybe in the countryside we can fi nd a bit more space for them to really rethink. And I think Rem also has his ambition for the countryside, That's also the morphological opportunities that he sees. In the end, it is one of the parts with his most optimistic about the countryside. There’s a space for something new.